Hi Chris,
What I wrote below doesn't exactly follow from your post here; I wrote it for the Disputations thread from yesterday (or the day before yesterday to you downunder?). Since Reginald ate your original post, I have no more context. What I had written was related to Universal Salvation, and not to Apokatastasis. But I hope that doesn't get in the way. So, here goes:
The existance of free-will requires that we be given the ability to reject God. If everyone must be saved, then there is no free will. You know this. But even if everyone will be saved -- i.e. the second judgement finds all people to have chosen God in whatever capacity they may have (and given our free-will, this is the only possible form Universal Salvation can take) -- hell must still exist and must be non-empty. (Because if a spiritual realm is empty, does it exist?)
However, the Church has never (and will never) declare any soul with certainty to be in hell. The vision that the Fatima children experienced of souls falling into hell -- while compelling -- remains a private revelation and therefore even the approval of the visions is not a dogmatic declaration on the part of the Church that souls are in fact in hell.
As much as I hope for Universal Salvation (and I do, because that might be the only way I make it to heaven), you must acknowledge that discussing it is at best a poor way to motivate spiritual growth on the part of your listeners and at worst potentially very harmful to those under your sphere of influence. The only college class I've ever audited I started out looking through all of the homework, but before the semester was half way over, I had stopped going all together. This is human nature, and that is why it is potentally dangerous to teach people to expect Universal Salvation, and why the Church would be quick to condemn any such teachings.
Furthermore, if Universal Salvation were a done deal -- if it were perfectly clear from the Scriptures or even from some form of private revelation (e.g. Julian of Norwich's "All will be well") that all souls would in fact be saved -- then the Devil himself would haved figured it out. If he became aware that he had no chance to win souls from God, then he would stop trying to get people to fall. Since he still bothers us, I think it's clear that Universal Salvation is not positively determined at this point. If nothing certain can be said about it, it should not be taught, for the danger that I mentioned above.
So my arguments are primarilly pastoral and pragmatic, but I tend towards pragmatism, among other of my own pet heresies.
peace,
brandon.
What I wrote below doesn't exactly follow from your post here; I wrote it for the Disputations thread from yesterday (or the day before yesterday to you downunder?). Since Reginald ate your original post, I have no more context. What I had written was related to Universal Salvation, and not to Apokatastasis. But I hope that doesn't get in the way. So, here goes:
The existance of free-will requires that we be given the ability to reject God. If everyone must be saved, then there is no free will. You know this. But even if everyone will be saved -- i.e. the second judgement finds all people to have chosen God in whatever capacity they may have (and given our free-will, this is the only possible form Universal Salvation can take) -- hell must still exist and must be non-empty. (Because if a spiritual realm is empty, does it exist?)
However, the Church has never (and will never) declare any soul with certainty to be in hell. The vision that the Fatima children experienced of souls falling into hell -- while compelling -- remains a private revelation and therefore even the approval of the visions is not a dogmatic declaration on the part of the Church that souls are in fact in hell.
As much as I hope for Universal Salvation (and I do, because that might be the only way I make it to heaven), you must acknowledge that discussing it is at best a poor way to motivate spiritual growth on the part of your listeners and at worst potentially very harmful to those under your sphere of influence. The only college class I've ever audited I started out looking through all of the homework, but before the semester was half way over, I had stopped going all together. This is human nature, and that is why it is potentally dangerous to teach people to expect Universal Salvation, and why the Church would be quick to condemn any such teachings.
Furthermore, if Universal Salvation were a done deal -- if it were perfectly clear from the Scriptures or even from some form of private revelation (e.g. Julian of Norwich's "All will be well") that all souls would in fact be saved -- then the Devil himself would haved figured it out. If he became aware that he had no chance to win souls from God, then he would stop trying to get people to fall. Since he still bothers us, I think it's clear that Universal Salvation is not positively determined at this point. If nothing certain can be said about it, it should not be taught, for the danger that I mentioned above.
So my arguments are primarilly pastoral and pragmatic, but I tend towards pragmatism, among other of my own pet heresies.
peace,
brandon.
# posted by 
: 2:13 pm
: 2:13 pm
I think I go more for the everyone "will" be saved more than the everyone "must" be saved (I think Tom calls this "contingent universal salvation").
If everyone must be saved, then there is no free will.
I readily admnit the possibility of a radical rejection of the divine will - ie a soul deliberately and freely choosing hell as their prefered place to spend eternity. Although one could argue that if that's where they really want to be then hell is their version of paradise. In this sense, they'd be "saved" in the sense of spending eternity in the place they prefer.
But it doesn't seem at all logical that anyone would in fact actually choose this option. Given the choice of eternal suffering or eternal happiness, whose going to choose eternal suffering ?
According the Navarre Bible commentary in my original post, God can overcome all our psychological and spiritual resistance.
I don't find the argument that hell must be non-empty because if a spiritual realm is empty, it can't exist at all convincing. This seems to put a limit on God's power and effectively deny his omnipotence.
discussing it is at best a poor way to motivate spiritual growth on the part of your listeners and at worst potentially very harmful to those under your sphere of influence.
Well, maybe. But only for those whose motivation is "what's the minimum I can get away with". Or for those who wish to "inspire" souls through the fear of hell. I reject both approaches, prefering the way of love. My motivation is to inspire those who want to do more to actually do more and to help to save souls. But no one is going to help save souls unless they are first convinced that souls can in fact be saved through their efforts, and that God wants this.
If he [Satan] became aware that he had no chance to win souls from God, then he would stop trying to get people to fall.
I don't think this follows because God chooses to allow Satan to exist in order to tempt us. God draws good from the existence of Satan.
Scripture and the prayer of the Church is full of references to the salvation of "all the peoples". If the Church herself prays for the salvation of all souls, I think we can be pretty confident that this prayer will be heard. And since we know God desires all souls to be saved, then we can be confident that this prayer is in accord with the will of God. Any prayer of the Church which is in accord with the will of God will be answered.
As for private revelation, anyone such as I, who has seen a vision of Mary at the second judgement, leading all the Church (which at that point is almost all of humanity) in praying the Fatima prayer, and God's response, is going to have at least a very strong expectation that all souls will be led into heaven.
For me, I don't see how any other view is really consistent with the pivotal role of Mary in salvation. Her prayer is always effective. And we know what she prays for. Her call is for us to join her. A good start is to regularly pray the rosary with the Fatima prayer.
God Bless
If everyone must be saved, then there is no free will.
I readily admnit the possibility of a radical rejection of the divine will - ie a soul deliberately and freely choosing hell as their prefered place to spend eternity. Although one could argue that if that's where they really want to be then hell is their version of paradise. In this sense, they'd be "saved" in the sense of spending eternity in the place they prefer.
But it doesn't seem at all logical that anyone would in fact actually choose this option. Given the choice of eternal suffering or eternal happiness, whose going to choose eternal suffering ?
According the Navarre Bible commentary in my original post, God can overcome all our psychological and spiritual resistance.
I don't find the argument that hell must be non-empty because if a spiritual realm is empty, it can't exist at all convincing. This seems to put a limit on God's power and effectively deny his omnipotence.
discussing it is at best a poor way to motivate spiritual growth on the part of your listeners and at worst potentially very harmful to those under your sphere of influence.
Well, maybe. But only for those whose motivation is "what's the minimum I can get away with". Or for those who wish to "inspire" souls through the fear of hell. I reject both approaches, prefering the way of love. My motivation is to inspire those who want to do more to actually do more and to help to save souls. But no one is going to help save souls unless they are first convinced that souls can in fact be saved through their efforts, and that God wants this.
If he [Satan] became aware that he had no chance to win souls from God, then he would stop trying to get people to fall.
I don't think this follows because God chooses to allow Satan to exist in order to tempt us. God draws good from the existence of Satan.
Scripture and the prayer of the Church is full of references to the salvation of "all the peoples". If the Church herself prays for the salvation of all souls, I think we can be pretty confident that this prayer will be heard. And since we know God desires all souls to be saved, then we can be confident that this prayer is in accord with the will of God. Any prayer of the Church which is in accord with the will of God will be answered.
As for private revelation, anyone such as I, who has seen a vision of Mary at the second judgement, leading all the Church (which at that point is almost all of humanity) in praying the Fatima prayer, and God's response, is going to have at least a very strong expectation that all souls will be led into heaven.
For me, I don't see how any other view is really consistent with the pivotal role of Mary in salvation. Her prayer is always effective. And we know what she prays for. Her call is for us to join her. A good start is to regularly pray the rosary with the Fatima prayer.
God Bless
Some of the traditional prayers of the Church offer great hope. For example, the Te Deum :-
O GOD, we praise Thee: we acknowledge Thee to be the Lord.
Everlasting Father, all the earth doth worship Thee.
To Thee all the Angels, the Heavens and all the Powers,
all the Cherubim and Seraphim, unceasingly proclaim:
Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of
Hosts
[See http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Trinitas/TeDeum.html for the original Latin].
... all the earth doth worship Thee. All??
To Thee all the Angels... All the Angels, even the fallen Angels ??
God Bless
O GOD, we praise Thee: we acknowledge Thee to be the Lord.
Everlasting Father, all the earth doth worship Thee.
To Thee all the Angels, the Heavens and all the Powers,
all the Cherubim and Seraphim, unceasingly proclaim:
Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of
Hosts
[See http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Trinitas/TeDeum.html for the original Latin].
... all the earth doth worship Thee. All??
To Thee all the Angels... All the Angels, even the fallen Angels ??
God Bless
airing these ideas might be a very efficacious means of bringing people about to loving God as much as He loves them.
I agree.
When I attended my very first RCIA meeting I was profoundly struck by the grief and despair of a newly baptised Catholic who believed his non-believing father had gone to hell, simply because he wasn't baptised and didn't believe.
This put me off continuing with the RCIA programme as Catholics seemed to be so far from a proper understanding of the nature of God. When one is looking for God, one is unlikely to be very inspired to join with those whose understanding of God is so clearly wrong.
I spent the following ten years attending mass until I got to the point of resuming RCIA classes.
For me, a belief in the strong possibility of universal salvation was absolutely central to my journey into the Catholic Church. I couldn't have become a Catholic without that understanding.
God Bless
I agree.
When I attended my very first RCIA meeting I was profoundly struck by the grief and despair of a newly baptised Catholic who believed his non-believing father had gone to hell, simply because he wasn't baptised and didn't believe.
This put me off continuing with the RCIA programme as Catholics seemed to be so far from a proper understanding of the nature of God. When one is looking for God, one is unlikely to be very inspired to join with those whose understanding of God is so clearly wrong.
I spent the following ten years attending mass until I got to the point of resuming RCIA classes.
For me, a belief in the strong possibility of universal salvation was absolutely central to my journey into the Catholic Church. I couldn't have become a Catholic without that understanding.
God Bless
Hi Steven and Chris,
Contributing to the St. Blogsphere is new to me. I've been a long time reader, but only recently have I decided that I might have something useful to contribute. (I might, I might not, you guys can be the judges). So while I feel at least mildly familiar with both of you, but since neither of you could be familiar with me, I think I might have not stated my points clearly enough. Like both of you (!), I am a convert to Catholicism. Part of my initial draw to the Catholic Church was also the realization that here is a church that can cope with salvation that does not depend upon the name of "Jesus." My Protestant training was Evangelical in nature, and the confessing faith in the name of Jesus is paramount, in fact it is sometimes taught as the only requirement for salvation. This offended all of the religious sensabilities that I had at the time, but I didn't have any philosophical or theological background to draw upon to come up with any alternative. So I don't mean to write against the possibility of Universal Salvation, in fact, I draw much encouragement from the fact that the Church has never and will never declare any person to be in Hell. Even Judas (I read that in a book written by [Servant of God] Fulton Sheen while I was going through RCIA). So I don't see any danger in teaching that any soul can be saved. The form of Universal Salvation that I meant to address my previous comment to is the form that says that all says all souls will be saved. This is what i consider dangerous, because in my opinion it removes the motivation for doing works on my part to save souls. Many Saints (including the children from Fatima, and St. Therese of Liseaux) have been motivated to great heights in order to save souls from the pains of hell.
I would like to reply in more detail, but my 3 year-old and 1.5 year-old sons don't make Sundays a good day for writing or working on the computer in general. We did get the chance to enjoy unseasonably warm central-Illinois weather at the park this afternoon, and tonight I will consider a more complete response to all of your points and reply in more detail tomorrow. This is certainly a fascinating discussion, and I apologize for not being clear enough in my position in my earlier post.
peace,
brandon.
Contributing to the St. Blogsphere is new to me. I've been a long time reader, but only recently have I decided that I might have something useful to contribute. (I might, I might not, you guys can be the judges). So while I feel at least mildly familiar with both of you, but since neither of you could be familiar with me, I think I might have not stated my points clearly enough. Like both of you (!), I am a convert to Catholicism. Part of my initial draw to the Catholic Church was also the realization that here is a church that can cope with salvation that does not depend upon the name of "Jesus." My Protestant training was Evangelical in nature, and the confessing faith in the name of Jesus is paramount, in fact it is sometimes taught as the only requirement for salvation. This offended all of the religious sensabilities that I had at the time, but I didn't have any philosophical or theological background to draw upon to come up with any alternative. So I don't mean to write against the possibility of Universal Salvation, in fact, I draw much encouragement from the fact that the Church has never and will never declare any person to be in Hell. Even Judas (I read that in a book written by [Servant of God] Fulton Sheen while I was going through RCIA). So I don't see any danger in teaching that any soul can be saved. The form of Universal Salvation that I meant to address my previous comment to is the form that says that all says all souls will be saved. This is what i consider dangerous, because in my opinion it removes the motivation for doing works on my part to save souls. Many Saints (including the children from Fatima, and St. Therese of Liseaux) have been motivated to great heights in order to save souls from the pains of hell.
I would like to reply in more detail, but my 3 year-old and 1.5 year-old sons don't make Sundays a good day for writing or working on the computer in general. We did get the chance to enjoy unseasonably warm central-Illinois weather at the park this afternoon, and tonight I will consider a more complete response to all of your points and reply in more detail tomorrow. This is certainly a fascinating discussion, and I apologize for not being clear enough in my position in my earlier post.
peace,
brandon.
# posted by : 2:46 pm
: 2:46 pm
Dear Brendan,
Thanks for your comments.
I've never found much of Evangelicalism particularly convincing, although I do admire their faith and committment to many worthy social and political causes and work closely with many Evangelicals on topics of common political interest (eg opposing Euthanasia).
This is what i consider dangerous, because in my opinion it removes the motivation for doing works on my part to save souls.
I think God intends to save all of humanity, but not without our participation in the process of saving them. Remember, God required the active participation of Mary in the incarnation, and he requires our active participation in salvation too. We are all called to be little Marys.
I think that if one is convinced that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, ie in the possibility that all might be saved, and that one can actually do something to help them to be saved, by living a good and holy life, by prayer and penance and by offering up indulgences and offering a quiet good example; then one is obliged to participate in such works.
I see the possibility of Universal Salvation as a motivation to participate actively in bringing it about rather than an excuse to be lazy, sit back and do nothing.
I think love is always a better motive than fear. Fear is behind many of our problems and Christ constantly taught us not to fear. So it's better to act for universal salvatrion through works of love than to fear that it cannot happen or to fear that one can do nothing to assist it.
Our priest said something rather profound about the meaning of "submission" at the Epiphany Mass (the Magi submitted/paid homage to Christ) - that "submission" means to be part of another's mission - sub/mission = part of mission. Thats how I see working for the salvation of all of humanity - as being an active part of the mission of Christ and the mission of his body the Church.
Hope this helps.
God Bless
Thanks for your comments.
I've never found much of Evangelicalism particularly convincing, although I do admire their faith and committment to many worthy social and political causes and work closely with many Evangelicals on topics of common political interest (eg opposing Euthanasia).
This is what i consider dangerous, because in my opinion it removes the motivation for doing works on my part to save souls.
I think God intends to save all of humanity, but not without our participation in the process of saving them. Remember, God required the active participation of Mary in the incarnation, and he requires our active participation in salvation too. We are all called to be little Marys.
I think that if one is convinced that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, ie in the possibility that all might be saved, and that one can actually do something to help them to be saved, by living a good and holy life, by prayer and penance and by offering up indulgences and offering a quiet good example; then one is obliged to participate in such works.
I see the possibility of Universal Salvation as a motivation to participate actively in bringing it about rather than an excuse to be lazy, sit back and do nothing.
I think love is always a better motive than fear. Fear is behind many of our problems and Christ constantly taught us not to fear. So it's better to act for universal salvatrion through works of love than to fear that it cannot happen or to fear that one can do nothing to assist it.
Our priest said something rather profound about the meaning of "submission" at the Epiphany Mass (the Magi submitted/paid homage to Christ) - that "submission" means to be part of another's mission - sub/mission = part of mission. Thats how I see working for the salvation of all of humanity - as being an active part of the mission of Christ and the mission of his body the Church.
Hope this helps.
God Bless
I think Chris often overstates the case
You're right - I tend to be blunt and dogmatic.
I tend to believe what I pray. If one constantly prays the Fatima prayer one winds up expecting that he will lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of his mercy.
There's also the Divine Mercy prayer (encouraged by Pope John Paul II who attached a plenary indulgency to Divine Mercy Sunday) :-
Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world; for the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
have mercy on us and on the whole world.
"Us" - that's all of us, all of humanity.
"The whole world" - that's everything in the world, fallen angels included I guess.
And we know souls have been saved through the Divine Mercy chaplet.
God Bless
You're right - I tend to be blunt and dogmatic.
I tend to believe what I pray. If one constantly prays the Fatima prayer one winds up expecting that he will lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of his mercy.
There's also the Divine Mercy prayer (encouraged by Pope John Paul II who attached a plenary indulgency to Divine Mercy Sunday) :-
Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world; for the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
have mercy on us and on the whole world.
"Us" - that's all of us, all of humanity.
"The whole world" - that's everything in the world, fallen angels included I guess.
And we know souls have been saved through the Divine Mercy chaplet.
God Bless
The Divine office is chock full of prayers for the salvation of all.
For example, Afternoon Concluding Prayer, Week 1, Tuesday Ordinary Time :-
...Open our hearts to work more zealously
for the salvation of the world,
so that your Church
may bring us and all men into your presence.
Not to believe that this will actually happen seems not to have faith in what one prays, in the official prayer of the Church, and in the Church herself.
God Bless
For example, Afternoon Concluding Prayer, Week 1, Tuesday Ordinary Time :-
...Open our hearts to work more zealously
for the salvation of the world,
so that your Church
may bring us and all men into your presence.
Not to believe that this will actually happen seems not to have faith in what one prays, in the official prayer of the Church, and in the Church herself.
God Bless
Hi Chris and Steven,
Yesterday was consumed with work... And I only have a couple of things more to add to what you've written.
Steven, I think your most recent post exactly states my beliefs as well. I hope for salvation of all, and I like to think that I am working for salvation of all, but I am cautious in expecting it.
Chris, after I've taught some Community College math classes, I perhaps have a more pessimistic view of human nature as a minimistalistic "what's the least I can get away with". I whole-heartedly agree that the only way to effectively motivate someone is from a positive point of view, (i.e. love, in the spiritual realm, and knowlegde, in the academic realm), but there are different levels of response that people are going through, and in order for them to realise that their lives and choices make a difference, I still am convinced that teaching people to expect that all people will be saved could tend towards spiritual apathy rather than heroic virtue. Teaching that all people can be saved -- especially through our personal sacrifices and prayers -- is what motivates heroic virtue, at least from my experience and reading of the few lives of the Saints that I've read.
I also still maintain that Hell must be non-empty, and that the devil is acutely aware of the possibility of his winning souls from God. I don't have any good arguments for it, but in a similar way as God can know evil without actually knowing it by knowing everything around it, I think for evil to create that void in goodness, there must be an active evil force present there. And this doesn't limit God's power any more than He limited it, by allowing the devil (and us) to choose not to love Him. And He further limited His power by choosing to come among us as one of us, in the form of a helpless baby. Before I was Catholic, I thought that maybe the child Jesus was just a mini-person, not in need of teaching because He was God. As I came to know Our Blessed Mother (and then really, when I had newborn children of my own and fully realised their complete helplessness), I have a whole new appreciation for the complete trust God the Father had in Mary and Joseph. They were completely responsible for Jesus' education, and so without their properly explaining the Law and the Prophets to him as a child, He never would have known that He was to be the Pascal Sacrifice. Mary's participation in Salvation History is often condensed down to the Annunciation, but in fact the every day lessons that she and Joseph taught Jesus were just as instrumental. So that is God, limiting His omnipotence for our sake.
I think that all three of us differ slightly in shading, but I do think that we have similar substance. I certainly don't claim to be prophetic, and I suspect that I will never be the recipient of any private revelations that aren't in the intellectual realm. But my personal view on motivating heroic virtue on the part of myself and those listening is dependant on understanding our personal power in the spiritual realm. What I mean is that telling people that they have the power to do things and make choices that will get other people and themselves to heaven. Perhaps my aversion to the everyone will be saved form of Universal Salvation stems from my experience with pseudo-Calvinistic Evangelical Christianity, which says that we are powerless to do anything towards our salvation, except to rely on freely-given grace.
So in as much as Universal Salvation is a hope that all people will be together in heaven, sign me up. I even believe that other religions have some valid revelation contained; I have a mala (prayer beads from the Buddhist tradition) that I had blessed and use for the Jesus Prayer. But as far as teaching/preaching (and this includes blogging) that all people will be saved, I think that must be done very carefully. St. Ignatius said something similar about predestination, in his Spiritual Exercises, something to the effect that of course God knows whether we will be in heaven or hell and to that extent predestination is true; still we should refrain from talking about it in case it gives people the wrong opinion.
I have been enjoying this discussion very much, because it's given me a chance to think about the details of things that I have only glanced over previously.
peace,
brandon.
Yesterday was consumed with work... And I only have a couple of things more to add to what you've written.
Steven, I think your most recent post exactly states my beliefs as well. I hope for salvation of all, and I like to think that I am working for salvation of all, but I am cautious in expecting it.
Chris, after I've taught some Community College math classes, I perhaps have a more pessimistic view of human nature as a minimistalistic "what's the least I can get away with". I whole-heartedly agree that the only way to effectively motivate someone is from a positive point of view, (i.e. love, in the spiritual realm, and knowlegde, in the academic realm), but there are different levels of response that people are going through, and in order for them to realise that their lives and choices make a difference, I still am convinced that teaching people to expect that all people will be saved could tend towards spiritual apathy rather than heroic virtue. Teaching that all people can be saved -- especially through our personal sacrifices and prayers -- is what motivates heroic virtue, at least from my experience and reading of the few lives of the Saints that I've read.
I also still maintain that Hell must be non-empty, and that the devil is acutely aware of the possibility of his winning souls from God. I don't have any good arguments for it, but in a similar way as God can know evil without actually knowing it by knowing everything around it, I think for evil to create that void in goodness, there must be an active evil force present there. And this doesn't limit God's power any more than He limited it, by allowing the devil (and us) to choose not to love Him. And He further limited His power by choosing to come among us as one of us, in the form of a helpless baby. Before I was Catholic, I thought that maybe the child Jesus was just a mini-person, not in need of teaching because He was God. As I came to know Our Blessed Mother (and then really, when I had newborn children of my own and fully realised their complete helplessness), I have a whole new appreciation for the complete trust God the Father had in Mary and Joseph. They were completely responsible for Jesus' education, and so without their properly explaining the Law and the Prophets to him as a child, He never would have known that He was to be the Pascal Sacrifice. Mary's participation in Salvation History is often condensed down to the Annunciation, but in fact the every day lessons that she and Joseph taught Jesus were just as instrumental. So that is God, limiting His omnipotence for our sake.
I think that all three of us differ slightly in shading, but I do think that we have similar substance. I certainly don't claim to be prophetic, and I suspect that I will never be the recipient of any private revelations that aren't in the intellectual realm. But my personal view on motivating heroic virtue on the part of myself and those listening is dependant on understanding our personal power in the spiritual realm. What I mean is that telling people that they have the power to do things and make choices that will get other people and themselves to heaven. Perhaps my aversion to the everyone will be saved form of Universal Salvation stems from my experience with pseudo-Calvinistic Evangelical Christianity, which says that we are powerless to do anything towards our salvation, except to rely on freely-given grace.
So in as much as Universal Salvation is a hope that all people will be together in heaven, sign me up. I even believe that other religions have some valid revelation contained; I have a mala (prayer beads from the Buddhist tradition) that I had blessed and use for the Jesus Prayer. But as far as teaching/preaching (and this includes blogging) that all people will be saved, I think that must be done very carefully. St. Ignatius said something similar about predestination, in his Spiritual Exercises, something to the effect that of course God knows whether we will be in heaven or hell and to that extent predestination is true; still we should refrain from talking about it in case it gives people the wrong opinion.
I have been enjoying this discussion very much, because it's given me a chance to think about the details of things that I have only glanced over previously.
peace,
brandon.
# posted by : 3:05 am
: 3:05 am
Brandon,
I like your thoughts on Mary and Joseph's role in educating Jesus in the Jewish faith and tradition.
I'm not too worried about people being spiritually lazy because they think everyone will be saved.
I think people are spiritually active because they are touched by Love and want to respond to that Love.
I agree with what you say about inspiring people to take spiritual action to save souls.
I think that when one does this regularly one comes to believe that what one prays for will take place.
If one doesn't believe that, then can one say one is really praying in faith ?
God Bless
Post a Comment
I like your thoughts on Mary and Joseph's role in educating Jesus in the Jewish faith and tradition.
I'm not too worried about people being spiritually lazy because they think everyone will be saved.
I think people are spiritually active because they are touched by Love and want to respond to that Love.
I agree with what you say about inspiring people to take spiritual action to save souls.
I think that when one does this regularly one comes to believe that what one prays for will take place.
If one doesn't believe that, then can one say one is really praying in faith ?
God Bless
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